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Thorim (10man) Strategy?

VOTES

3

My guild is running Ulduar(10) on a weekly basis now. We have downed all bosses (including ignis) up to Auriaya with I would say is a group who is the right gear lvl for it. Both tanks (including myself) have 4200 gearscore and the healers have 4000-4200.

Last night we tried to do Thorim but we just couldn't get him down. Most of the attempts our group two never made it out of the gauntlet, or group one in arena died before group two was out of the gauntlet. The mobs in the arena were just piling up, I think at one point when the group two had just gotten to second sub-boss I must have had at least a minutes worth of spawns on me in arena. So I think that the dps in both arena and gauntlet was lacking because in the videos that I've seen the mobs in the arena don't stay past one wave.

Currently we are running with a few who have 3400-3600 gear score and even though they may be skilled I am not sure that it is enough to get bosses like Thorim down.

My question is: How much dps do you need to have when you get into the later bosses in Ulduar(10)?

Edit: Clarifications The gearscores are from the GearScore addon, as a reference 4150 is recommended for ToC(10). Our tanks and healers far outgear Ulduar(10) but our dps is in the 3400-3600 range, 3800 is recommended for Ulduar(10).

We split our raid like:

Group1: Arena Group Paladin(me) - Tank, Shamman - Healer, Druid - Healer, Paladin - DPS, Hunter

Group2: Gauntlet Group Druid - Tank, Shamman - Healer, Rogue, Hunter, Warlock

Edit #2: We Downed Him

Last night my guild went back into Ulduar to see if we could get Thorim down before it reset, we got him down in 4 attempts. We tried having me in the gauntlet and our druid heal while our shaman got on her pally and tanked the arena but no luck. So on our last attmept of the night the druid switched to feral and tanked gauntlet, the pally tank got on her shammy and healed arena, and I tanked the arena. Thank you everyone for your imput and advice, it really helped.

Group1: Arena Group Paladin(me) - Tank, Shamman - Healer, Shamman - Healer, Paladin - DPS, Hunter

Group2: Gauntlet Group Druid - Tank, Priest - Healer, Druid - DPS, Mage, DK

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Those scores look like scores from the Gear Score addon; if those are not, you should clarify as such. You also might want to mention if this is 10 man or 25 man. – Christopher Schmidt (Nov 10 2009 7:50 AM)

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Ulduar 10 is explicitly referred to repeatedly throughout the question. – Feist (Nov 10 2009 8:03 AM)

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Indeed! Not enough coffee yet. Sorry. – Christopher Schmidt (Nov 10 2009 8:20 AM)

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This question is about Thorim strategy, not what level of DPS is necessary for Ulduar 10 as the title suggests. The asker answers this very question in his own question: "3800 is recommended for Ulduar(10)". I suggest the title be changed to "What sort of raid configuration, gear level and strategy would you recommend for Thorim?" in addition to the title to something more along these lines. I was expecting something completely different when opening up this question. – schm0 (Nov 12 2009 10:28 AM)

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Sorry I will change it. It was one of those things where the question got morphed after I typed it. – Rbkskillz (Nov 12 2009 1:14 PM)

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Something that's been covered already, but we usually only put 1 tank, 2 dps, and a healer in the gauntlet and could still push hard enough to hit hard mode. Your tank just has to push it hard. If you put too many in there, the arena will get rocked when Thorim hits the ground. – Nehi (Nov 13 2009 4:07 PM)

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One other thing... This is about Thorim normal, right? – Nehi (Nov 13 2009 4:07 PM)

6 Answer(s)

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VOTES

-2

About 3 months ago when out guild started heavily raiding ulduar 10, all our dps could accomplish 3.5-4.5k dps, though we also still failed a fights such as thorim, mosly due to agro control, not dps. after a while, we figured how to sort our groups out so the least agro healers and dps were in the arena, which made it much easier for the tank to keep agro, allowing for the dps to kill the adds faster(less agro-reducing and less moving). in the gauntlet, we had our best burst-dps, allowing us to zip through the stairs (IMO the harder part of it) and kill the last boss quickly. as a dk, i was usually put in the gauntlet and as my shammy i was put in the arena (because drood hots agro'd the add before the tank could) it really didn't matter much after that if our dps was under 3k, because we could survive as long as we needed. although this was the case, still, upward of 3k dps is probably optimal, as certain bosses are purely dps races (and healer races), such as hodir. another benefit our guild had, was me and our druid healer could 2-heal many bosses, so we had an extra 3k dps, but overall, 3k dps minimum, 4k+ is awesome and good tanks and healers are really what matter. my main point is that dps is not always the problem, and good tanks and healers are also very important.

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Line breaks, Capital Letters, and Periods are your friend. This answer is kind of rambling and nigh incoherent at times. – Feist (Nov 10 2009 8:26 AM)

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Agreed. Questions/answers are a lot easier to read and comprehend when split up into sentences and paragraphs. – DarkFinch (Nov 10 2009 9:59 AM)

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Indeed line breaks would help a ton. I in fact refused to read this post because it hurt my eyes. – Spazmoosifer (Nov 10 2009 2:09 PM)

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I heard people with reputation could like, edit it to make it look better! – ♦♦Jesta (Nov 16 2009 11:51 PM)

VOTES

3

Usually about 3.5k on average for the Keepers and beyond is enough for an average group. If you're downing the bosses beforehand without any dramas, you've got sufficient gear for the Keepers. That's not your problem.

The Keepers are very involved fights; they're a real test of your group's coordination and skill. Thorim's particularly tricky to get right, and it took my guild several weeks to get everything in line.

It sounds like your hallway group is making it to the second boss somewhat reliably, so it sounds like it's your arena group that's the problem. Keep an eye on who's dying, ask individually if anyone's not feeling in control of the fight, and maybe shuffle people around a bit. Squishies tend to do better in the hallway, I find, but it depends on your players who is best suited where.

Alternatively, if you're not downing Freya or Hodir, they're worth looking into as well. We found them a good deal easier.

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Good answer. Sometimes, more communication and strategy can make up for a lack of skill and gear. I'm not saying that your group DOESN'T have the proper skill and gear needed, but better communication can go a LONG way in any raid. – DarkFinch (Nov 10 2009 10:02 AM)

VOTES

6

Gear is certainly enough - as you probably know it's very possible to clear Ulduar 10 in blues. So, while better gear certainly helps, blaming gear is really just a convenient excuse. Without knowing more about your raid, it's hard to give suggestions, but here's a few comments:

  1. Do you not have enough dps, or is the dps dying? In the former case, try running with 2 healers instead of three. Although it may seem crazy, reducing healers by 1 and increasing dps may actually make encounters go more smoothly, as stuff dies a lot more quickly. This is especially feasible if your tank has enough gear to survive a couple more hits (and possibly enough skill/experience to use his cooldowns wisely). If instead dps is dying, try to figure out why: did they not get heals because healers were stunned/interrupted (make sure the mobs in the tunnels are not on the healers - for arena, kill the non-elite, interrupting mobs quickly)? Or because they were busy with the tanks (why were they taking so much more damage than usual)? Or is it because healers were asleep at the wheel?
  2. How are you splitting up your raiders? Tunnel favors ranged/spell-users; arena favors melee, but it's nice to have some AoE for the non-elite mobs (though a rogue's FoK or a DK's D&D are more than enough). We prefer to split casters in tunnel and melee in the arena also for buff purposes, to make sure we maximise our utility from class synergy.
  3. Is the kill order the right one? For example, the tunnel tank can ignore the Acolyte: he hits very lightly, and dies immediately if the 3 tunnel dps focus on him. This means the tunnel tank has to control 2 mobs per pack only.
  4. How much time does it take for the tunnel group to finish things up? Arena will always fall slightly behind - the key is to make sure there's not too much left alive by the time Thorim comes down. For that to happen, the tunnel tank needs to keep pushing ahead: don't wait until all the mobs are dead before moving to the next group, make sure to use your stuns so you can move ahead and start building aggro on the next group, and once the first boss is down, move up the stairs as quickly as possible, because mobs will keep spawning until you do.

In short, gear is not the issue (though more gear can help). Try to analyse your attempts, and figure out what is the real problem.

Edit: Can one of the two shamans switch to dps? I really don't think you need 3 healers for Thorim hard, especially if your gear is at ToC10 level. Also, I would definitely put the rogue in the arena: interrupts, stuns and FoK spam all help in there, and the first boss' damage shield make him less useful in one part (admittedly small) of the tunnel. Also, I suspect a druid would be better in the arena (more health to cushion MS). Mostly though, you need to a) experiment and find out what works for YOUR group; b) look at combat logs and figure out what's going wrong and correcting the mistakes/weak spots

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With point 2, it's worth experimenting with the amount of people in the arena group and the gauntlet. For example, we used 2 ranged DPS in the gauntlet and 3 DPS in the Arena (3 and 3 now that we only use 2 healers in 10man). – Cracked Jar (Nov 10 2009 4:25 PM)

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Could you revise now that I have edited my question to include more information? Thank you. – Rbkskillz (Nov 10 2009 5:34 PM)

VOTES

3

So, looking at your revised question, this leaps out at me:

Group1: Arena Group Paladin(me) - Tank, Shamman - Healer, Druid - Healer, Paladin - DPS, Hunter

Group2: Gauntlet Group Druid - Tank, Shamman - Healer, Rogue, Hunter, Warlock

That feels like you're splitting your groups all wrong - specifically, that rogue should /really really/ be in the arena. Melee is nigh-useless in the gauntlet, and short cooldown interrupts and Fan of Knives are both fantastic in the arena, not to mention Tricks of the Trade. Similarly, Hunters in the arena can Tranq Shot off the Evokers shield, which is a must to get them down quickly.

Remember, you have six minutes to get to Thorim and activate P2 of the fight so long as you aren't chasing hardmode, so when learning the fight, err on the side of stacking DPS in the arena, and clear the tunnel gauntlet with as minimal a crew as possible. It's more important that the Arena never get overwhelmed.

As you grow more comfortable with the fight and begin to gear up, and you look towards hard mode, you can start shifting that balance more and more towards the tunnel to speed things up, but for the first kill, move the rogue at the very least, and possibly even the second hunter into the arena.

You may also want to consider dropping a healer if your tanks/healers outgear the content but your DPS is a bit behind.

VOTES

0

My guild is just getting to the Keepers. We're having problems with Hodir, but Thorim has fallen to us three weeks in a row,, the last two weeks one shot each time.

Our composition is as follows:

Arena - pally tank, shaman healer, mage (me), rogue, dk, hunter.

Tunnel - warrior tank, tree healer, hunter, lock.

We find that keeping the extra DPS in the arena helps to burn down the arena waves faster, and the shaman's chain heal was more effective raid healing in that situation (we group up together in the center; we take more of a hit from the stormhammer, but its worked for us)

What we have found to be a very useful tactic is for me/a mage to spellsteal the shields and rejuvenation spells that the evokers & champions put up. it a) makes them vulnerable to attack, and b) shields one target from attacks so that the healer has less to deal with (espcially since one of the shields when spellstolen lasts for a minute).

I believe that the shields that get put up are also dispellable by a hunters Tranq shot, as well as a priest's dispel.

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I will try that spell steal thing, we have two really good mages that usually run with us but they weren't on for our last Ulduar run. We will be trying again this Saturday, thinking about putting a stream up on xfire. – Rbkskillz (Nov 13 2009 9:04 AM)

VOTES

9

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