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Accelerating Loot Council

VOTES

5

I'm in a guild which prefers to give loot to the raiders who need it the most. We're currently trying to get everyone set up on EPGPLootmaster, an addon that allows players to roll main/off/pass and provides a decent UI for showing what the player currently has by comparison, etc.

However, it feels like we still do a fair amount of bickering over what is best for who; to some extent, this is fair, because almost all classes have lower level items that are not BiS/great for them.

Right now, loot takes a long time for us to handle this way; assuming the use of Loot Council, what tools do people use to determine who will receive the most benefit from an upgrade?

As a specific example, we just had Stormpike Cleaver drop in TOC25. Both the Combat Rogue and Enhance Shaman rolled on it. Both had 232 weapons. How can you tell who it is a bigger upgrade for quickly?

An in-game "Best In Slot" list might actually help with something like this to some extent, though obviously "BiS" depends on a lot of things, and keeping that data up to date across changes takes time and energy. Another possible choice would be to enter your raid members into some website, select a raid, and have the website tell you what drops could be used by who; that way, at least you could evaluate before you go in.

For my personal gear, I have Pawn set up to give me a ranking; perhaps I could add a Pawn ranking for every class we have raiding with us to my config, which would then let me quickly at least get a basic comparison. (Is there a central place for common Pawn rankings for all specs, or would I have to search each class/spec combination's EJ thread to find that out?)

Are there tools like this, in game or out of game, to attempt to rank gear based on how good it is for different classes? Are there other ways to make loot council faster? ("Just roll on gear, and pass to people who need it more" is my personal preference, but I'm currently working in a guild who prefers to give loot based on largest upgrades based on Loot Council's decisions, rather than guild members. So suggesting that won't help me much.)

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The more I think about it the more I think that this question doesn't have an exact answer and would be nicely served as a community discussion project. – Shagrat (Dec 15 2009 7:45 AM)

3 Answer(s)

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VOTES

1

No loot system is perfect, as I'm sure you're aware, and the biggest problem with loot councils is how long it takes to hand out loot. When you get to items that have equal use to multiple classes, such as the axe you listed in your example, you need to factor in other things besides who gets the biggest upgrade out of it. Actually, you listed a perfect example with that axe. Shaman can use: Axes, Maces, and Fist Weapons while Rogues can use: Axes, Maces, Fist Weapons, Swords, and Daggers. Shaman can use daggers as well, but there is not a single dagger in the game that is slow enough for an enhancement shaman to even consider using so weapon availability for the classes in question needs to play into your decision as well. I would have given that weapon to the shaman because they can use it for both a main and off-hand weapon, where a combat rogue would only use it in his main-hand, as they prefer very fast weapons in the off-hand for Combat Potency procs.

Loot council puts more pressure on the officers on the council so they have to rely on the players to roll main/off on items they know are an upgrade for them.

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+1 Agree with this. The more expert and knowledgeable the council, the better Loot Council works as a system. As a player I'd be concerned if I thought that the council were uncertain enough about their own expertise to want to look elsewhere for decisions. – Runc (Dec 14 2009 10:26 AM)

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I don't think that any loot council -- that isn't unmanageably large -- can really have an in-depth understanding of every item for every class. (For example, I don't expect that most people would realize that Deathbringer's Will is probably a bigger upgrade for some Hunters than for top tier rogues due to crit capping.) I can make a good estimate, but even for my own gear, the way I test upgrades is "open the spreadsheet"; that doesn't work with 25 people. It's easy to get 90% of the way there, but making the hard calls is still hard. – Christopher Schmidt (Dec 14 2009 2:24 PM)

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Chris brings up a good point. I'll extend it to say -- if your guild is serious about raiding and using a loot council, you almost need a "role leader" (similar to the class leaders of Classic days). A role leader (one tanks, one heals, one melee/hunter, one caster) should know more-or-less how to play every class/spec of a given role. The role leaders would be on the loot council and should be able to make the kinds of decisions that Shagrat describes on the fly. This will, in most cases, speed up decision making. (Of course, class bias is a whole other issue.) – Xiera (Dec 14 2009 3:40 PM)

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Oh, also, having one person who acts as kind of an overseer and makes any final decisions might not be a bad idea. Maybe they're the guild leader or raid leader, or maybe just someone who knows how to play any class fairly well. – Xiera (Dec 14 2009 3:43 PM)

VOTES

3

I would say the council MUST put some sort of time limit on their decision. If they can't determine who it is the bigger upgrade for, just /random it. If it becomes too hard to determine who gets the most benefit from an item because the upgrade is pretty equal, there is nothing wrong with reverting to the good ole "/roll for it you two"

Personally, if I were on a loot council I would also keep track of each upgrade a person is assigned, and in the event of two people being close I would look at when they last received an item as a factor in the loot assignment too.

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+1 for tracking members' loot histories. This will also help handle cases like someone getting more/less loot because their class and spec is under-/over-represented. – Wikwocket (Dec 14 2009 3:33 PM)

VOTES

4

One thing that my own guild does to keep our Loot Council quick and efficient: Most of the decisions are made before the raid even starts.

Every member is required to post and maintain a 'loot list' to our guild forums - it should contain every item in the current tier of content of interest to that player, as well as a projected BIS setup.

The loot council convenes weekly, and uses those player generated lists, to generate a master list - every item that drops in the instance has a priority order - Axe of Awesome: Player 1 {Has it}, Player 2, Player 3, Player 4.

If Axe of Awesome drops, and Player 2 is in the raid, it's theirs. If they aren't, it goes to Player 3, and so on and so forth. Every item has a list like this, and the master list is updated weekly to keep one player from being at the top of every list or anything like that, and to make sure that gear is being evenly distributed.

This has the advantage of making the actual looting process when items drop extremely quick and efficient, while also giving the council plenty of time to make decisions, and players to argue their case when they happen to disagree. It also allows players to plan ahead a bit more - if I know I'm 5th in line for a Bloodvenom Blade, I might put some extra effort into chasing down Quel'delar. If I'm first, I might spend my time working on other upgrades instead.

The downside of course, is that this is significantly more time-intensive overall. It requires players to have a really good sense of their own class mechanics and future gear plan. It requires the officers/loot council (our council is all non-officers), to spend a great deal of time managing and updating the master list. And it requires everyone involved to make a commitment to the system working. But it does make the raids go much faster, and makes the actual process of handling loot very smooth.

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My favourite system is actually very similar to this. Rather than the loot council deciding on an order for each item, each player's list ranks their upgrades from most desired to least desired. The master list is then created using those priorities, so someone who has Axe of Awesome first on their list will receive it before someone who has Axe of Awesome third on their list, and so forth. As you said, this requires a lot more organisation on the part of the players, but I would argue that's actually a *good* thing that will make them better players. – Xiera (Dec 15 2009 8:39 AM)

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+1 for requiring players to list their priorities in advance – Unknown (Dec 15 2009 9:37 AM)

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Any time you're distributing loot via loot council, you have to have a priority system for just these situations. Since my guild is a small 10 man, we simply use /roll for gear that's an equal upgrade. – Nehi (Dec 17 2009 8:22 AM)

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