Looking for Help with EpicAdvice.com

We've recently published a new blog post explaining what's going on with EpicAdvice.com and are looking for someone to work with us to improve the site. If you're interested, have some ideas and want to know more, check out our blog post and feel free to email us at team@epicadvice.com. - Jesta

Best way to use lock and load

VOTES

4

Hi folks, I read this question, and was struck with a question of my own. When BM was nerfed in 3.0.8 and all the survival hunter theorycrafting was being re-done, I remember that someone figured out that explosive shot is so awesome that nothing else should ever push the cooldown back. Specifically during lock and load- aside from black arrow coming off cooldown, the advice has always been to fire your three explosive shots back to back, taking care not to clip the DoT.

Is this still true? Explosive shot has been nerfed a little since then (once at least) and our gear is in a much different place than it was then.

To get you started- here's the napkin math I see: every explosive shot does a certain amount of damage. Divide that by the 6 second cooldown, and that's the shot DPS. If, instead of 6 seconds, it's 7 seconds, then your shot DPS goes down. However, if that extra second was used to cast something like a kill shot, that's fine because your kill shot DPS is higher than your explosive shot DPS.

Steady shot is lower, aimed shot is lower, black arrow is about the same, and I don't know about serpent sting (if you have 2t9 and 3 points in improved stings).

So when firing explosive shots during lock and load, should we avoid firing shots between them? Is half a second of "dead time" worth less than a second of explosive shot cooldown push-back?

0

doesn't having aimed shot on a target (and similarly with Serpent sting talented for noxious stings), increase the dmg done to the target, and so therefore affect the order of abilities in lock and load? – Phood (Mar 1 2010 11:09 AM)

0

Doesn't having aimed shot on a target (and similarly with Serpent sting talented for noxious stings), increase the dmg done to the target by other abilitys, and so therefore affect the order of abilities in lock and load? – Phood (Mar 1 2010 11:10 AM)

0

Aimed Shot on a target does not affect other damage on the target. (The tooltip is confusing; it says "Increases ranged damage by 408", but really, that's just for the shot itself, not for the debuff on the target.) – Christopher Schmidt (Mar 1 2010 11:12 AM)

0

ah... but it still applies for Noxious Stings? – Phood (Mar 1 2010 11:13 AM)

0

Noxious stings does indeed apply, but if it weren't for the actual damage a glyphed 2t9 critting sting does, it wouldn't be worth it over an explosive shot, I suspect. Personally, without any solid math, I've been weaving serpent stings between lock and load explosives if my sting has fallen off, as well as black arrows if it comes off cooldown. – EuripidesOutDPS (Mar 1 2010 11:39 AM)

0

I believe if you put anything in between shot, you'll be loosing 1 second instead of 0.5. Since one should always wait for the explosive shot to finish before firing another one, and the kill shot would take 1.5sec GCD you would lose 1 second. I don't know the damage numbers, but thats something to consider. – Gorfmasta (Mar 1 2010 2:37 PM)

3 Answer(s)

Sort by... votes newest

VOTES

0

To my knowledge, yes, firing three explosive shots back to back waiting for the DoT to tick between each one is the correct way to do so. What I did back when I did a brief stint as survival (shudder Never again) was weave another shot in between each ExS, something like this:

LnL procs: ExS -> AS -> ExS -> Refresh Sting or BA -> ExS. It was a slight loss due to the GCD but I felt that way was better than relying on my own judgement and latency was better than clipping the DoT or waiting too long between each shot. At least that way you're doing some damage in between the DoT ticks.

0

As far as I know, the 2 seconds this pushes your explosive shot back are more of a loss in DPS than 1 second of wasted time, however that's what I'm trying to figure out. Ideally with math :) – EuripidesOutDPS (Mar 1 2010 12:15 PM)

VOTES

1

I recant my original argument after running some tests with simulationcraft.

The core of a Survival Hunter's rotation is

  Explosive Shot > Black Arrow > Serpent Sting > Aimed Shot (or Multi) > Steady Shot.

When Lock and Load procs and Explosive Shot is ready, how does it change?

The simulationcraft baseline is

  Explosive Shot (skip to avoid clipping) > Black Arrow > Serpent Sting > Aimed Shot (or Multi) > Steady Shot.

Changing it to

  Explosive Shot (wait to avoid clipping)

results in a DPS loss of almost 50 for my gear and talents.

Changing it to

  Explosive Shot > Serpent Sting > Aimed Shot

is a few DPS gain over the default.

If Explosive Shot is on cooldown when Lock and Load procs, the priorities do not change until Explosive Shot is available. Some of the simulationcraft output from my testing is here.


This was my original argument:

Can you beat the DPS of one Explosive Shot tic in 0.5 seconds?

According to femaledwarf.com on my current gear/spec, my overall DPS is 8.8K and Explosive Shot averages 15643 damage, which would be 5.2K per tick. If I delay 0.5 seconds, I am effectively getting 10.4K DPS for half a second without blowing any cooldowns. In fact, my cooldowns all get shorter. Any active DoTs will also be ticking during that time too.

A little bit more formally, imagine your rotation playing out over an entire boss fight where you always clip the last tick. My spreadsheet DPS is 8.8K DPS, and suppose yours is about the same with this clipping. Now, stretch out the fight a little bit by inserting 0.5 seconds with the lost ticks. All those extra seconds are at 10.4K DPS which will bring up the overall average. Maybe you lose a little of the burst DPS at the end since some kill shots move past the end of the fight, but you'd really just adjust your rotation to move them back to the natural times, so that should be pretty minor. You'd also adjust the rest of your rotation to match the earlier cooldown finishes which would again pull the overall DPS up. There are also possible DPS losses from buffs not stretching enough, but those would likely be small too.

A better answer probably will need to run a real simulator.

0

The math seems off, look at the "napkin simulator" i provided... – ♦♦gnarf (Mar 2 2010 12:13 AM)

0

Your napkin simulator underestimates the filler damage since steady shot heaven does not exist for Survival. – pherra (Mar 2 2010 6:57 AM)

0

Your napkin simulator also leaves Explosive Shot with 3 seconds of cooldown left on the Weave scenario, so they are not comparable. – pherra (Mar 2 2010 7:23 AM)

0

+1 @pherra - perhaps showing your own sim of some sort might help me understand where you are coming up with the numbers, but now that I see the mechanic of the cooldown shortening, I'm starting to lean towards agreeing with your analysis... I'm trying to think of a way to model it, but I'm not versed in hunter DPS. I saw the loss of 1 second (although this will be more in latency) on your GCD DPS but it is a second of shorter cooldowns, Whereas weaving leaves you 2 extra seconds waiting for your best shot. I would think the effects could easily be target dummy tested and logparsed... – ♦♦gnarf (Mar 3 2010 4:45 AM)

0

Pherra was telling me over IM that he's planning on trying to figure out a simulationcraft setup for this. – EuripidesOutDPS (Mar 3 2010 6:29 AM)

VOTES

2

Note: I no longer support this theory, as it misses some pretty important calculations of what happens 6/60 seconds later. I will leave it as an example of how this question might eventually be answered.


My napkin math based on your understanding (note I am not a hunter, and welcome any math wielding hunter to correct me in comments/edit my post if they have the rep)

Propsition

Measure the DPS done by Firing 3 explosive shots back to back, being very quick and accurate ( firing the explosive shots within .01 seconds of the last tick ) then back to "steady shot heaven", vs. being patient and weaving steady shots in between on GCD's. Not sure how autoshots calculate in or any of that, just hoping the math theory might help...

Scenario 1 - Delay 0.5 for Explosive

Made up numbers..

  • ExS does 15,600 damage divided evenly through 3 ticks, one instant, and 1 each second for 2 sec:
  • Steady does 4k
    Shot #  |  TimeCode |  Damage
    1-ExS   |     0     |    5.2k
            |     1     |   10.4k
            |     2     |   15.6k
    2-ExS   |     2.01  |   20.8k
            |     3.01  |   26.0k
            |     4.01  |   31.2k
    3-ExS   |     4.02  |   36.4k
            |     5.02  |   41.6k
    4-SS    |     5.52  |   ---
            |     6.02  |   46.8k
    (4)     |     7     |   50.8k
    5-SS    |     7     |   ---
    (5)     |     8.5   |   54.8k
    6-SS    |     8.5   |   ---
    (6)     |     10    |   58.8k
.... end logging

Congrats- 10 seconds worth of 5.8k DPS

Scenario 2 - Weave

Still taking advantage of the ExS quickly, but also capitalizing on the lack of cooldown:

    Shot #  |  TimeCode |  Damage
    1-ExS   |     0     |    5.2k
            |     1     |   10.4k
    2-SS    |     1.5   |   -----
    (1)     |     2     |   15.6k
    (2)     |     3     |   19.6k
    3-ExS   |     3     |   24.8k
            |     4     |   30.0k
    4-SS    |     4.5   |   ----
    (3)     |     5     |   35.2k
    (4)     |     6     |   39.2k
    5-ExS   |     6     |   44.4k
            |     7     |   49.6k
    6-SS    |     7.5   |   --
    (5)     |     8     |   54.8k
    (6)     |     9     |   58.8k

9 seconds at 6.53k dps

Summary

The theory I'm providing then is: Skipping 0.5 seconds of time you COULD be shooting something is a bad idea, unless the mob would die very soon. If you compare the #'s early on (4 sec for instance - 31.2k in sc1 vs 30k in Scenario 2) it looks like the sacrifice is worth it, however if you look at the long run, the same amount of damage will be dealt 1.0 seconds quicker if you had not wasted your GCD.

0

Thanks for this excellent writeup! I'm not arguing that during the lock and load, weaving will be more DPS, though. I'm wondering about the logic that states since it takes you longer to complete the lock and load, you push back the next non-free explosive shot by 1 second. Any way you could include that in your napkin math? – EuripidesOutDPS (Mar 2 2010 9:05 AM)

0

@euripides - I'll try although I'm not 100% sure I understand the dynamic... Although actually the next "non-free" would come 2 seconds later (last cast timecode 4 in SC1 vs 6 in SC2)... I still think the same thing will show up, You're going to be a full second (or more dependent on latency) behind in your "cooldown" dps, but 2 seconds ahead on your explosive shot cooldowns... So, maybe (just maybe) the wasted GCD time (1sec or more) might be worth the ability to get the next ExS 2 seconds earlier? I'll try to think of a way to evaluate that... – ♦♦gnarf (Mar 2 2010 5:01 PM)

EpicAdvice.com Sponsors